Irving v. Lipstadt
Transcripts
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
Pages 4 - 33 of 183
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It may well do. I will know by the end of the day
1whether it will, and he will immediately get a copy.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He ought to have the copy by close of
3business today really, ought he not?
4 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. So that deals with that.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, inform me, please. Is it not automatically
7discoverable now that it is within their custody,
8possession and power?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get it.
10 MR IRVING: Just so it can be quite plain, the whole document
11rather than a redacted version.
12 MR RAMPTON: No. I made a mistake. I thought it had come
13through in e-mail and has been put into readable form.
14Apparently not even that has happened yet. There is
15something the matter with the electronics.
16 MR IRVING: I recommend Macintosh.
17 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what the problem is because I am
18completely ignorant on those matters, so I have to
19surrender to others.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the order I am making, unless I am
21told that it is electronically impossible to comply with
22it, is that you should be provided with a copy.
23 MR IRVING: In electronic form if necessary.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In electronic form if necessary, of the
25Eichmann document by close of business, by which I mean,
26let us say, 5 p.m. today.
1 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship. The second point
2concerns the videos. I see that preparation has been made
3for display of videos. I have no notion of which video is
4going to be shown. It may well be that I would have
5objections to make to the videos for the reasons that
6I have already adumbrated to your Lordship, namely videos
7that have been edited in some way or prepared for
8broadcasting with sound effects and violins and subtitles,
9which may have been tendentiously translated, and the rest
10of it. I see the equipment is there. I certainly have a
11day of cross-examination of Professor Funke to do today
12and I think that I should be told in advance what the
13videos are and be given a chance to make representations.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have some sympathy with that.
15 MR RAMPTON: What I propose to do is to ask Professor Funke to
16lay the ground for these videos, because I do not think it
17is right to spring them on Mr Irving or your Lordship just
18like that, by asking him. Your Lordship will know that at
19the back of his report there is an appendix containing a
20list of names and descriptions. I am going to ask him to
21go through the important characters in that list, to
22expand on who they are and what they stand for, then to
23ask him how far he is aware that those people have had
24contact with Mr Irving, because Professor Funke has had
25access to Mr Irving's diary correspondence and so on, and
26to ask him the nature of those contacts speaking to
1us, for example, and the extent of them. That I hope is a
2short cut through what is a very voluminous and in some
3senses rather intricate report. Then I propose to show
4the videos which, as far as possible, we have stripped of
5editorial content. Most of them simply show people
6speaking, including, to a large extent, Mr Irving himself
7on a number ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not a jury and I am quite capable,
9I hope, sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
10 MR RAMPTON: Precisely -- on a limited number of occasions in
11Germany in the 1990s. What Professor Funke will do is to
12identify Mr Irving's fellow travellers, if I can call them
13that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will he also identify in advance what film is
15going to be shown so that, if Mr Irving has an objection,
16he can make it.
17 MR RAMPTON: He or I or Miss Rogers will do that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the video going to take?
19 MR RAMPTON: They can be very short. One of them is really
20quite long, but I do not believe it needs to have the
21whole of it shown. Most of them are really quite short.
22One is about 10 seconds.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The total?
24 MR RAMPTON: Total about an hour.
25 MR RAMPTON: The long one I spoke of is about 70 minutes, but
26there is an awful lot of, if I may use the word, ranting,
1not by Mr Irving alone, in the course of that video and
2one does not want to see the whole of it, necessarily.
3One merely needs to whiz forwards so that Professor Funke
4can say who the people are. That is 70 minutes but one
5does not need to watch the whole of it. The rest in total
6are about 45 minutes. If I said an hour for the videos
7and about three quarters of an hour in preparation, that
8will then set the scene for cross-examination.
9 MR IRVING: My Lord, if it is purely, as I understand it, what
10Muller would have called visual materials, then I have no
11objection to them being shown. But if in any attention is
12paid to the content of what is alleged to be said, or the
13extracts taken, then of course I would want advance notice
14of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave it like this. You are going to
16get some idea from Mr Funke's evidence what these clips
17are going to be. If you want to raise an objection when
18you know what you are going to be presented with, then do
19so. Shall we leave it like that?
20 MR RAMPTON: I will tell Mr Irving now what the meetings are.
21There is one on at Agonou in Azas on 12th November 1989
22organised by Mr Christophersen. There is a meeting in
23Munich under the legend or heading "Vaheit macht Frey" on
2421st April 1990. There is a meeting at Passau under the
25aegis of the DVU and Mr Gerhard Frey on 16th February
261991. There is what is called the Leuchter Congress,
1which is the long tape, on 23rd March 1991, again in
2Munich, and that is one in which a number of names which
3will be familiar to your Lordship, if not now, certainly
4by end of this exercise, feature. Then finally there is
5what is, in some ways we would suppose, perhaps the most
6striking, which is an outdoor rally in a place called
7Halle in what used to be East Germany but by 9th November
81991 was in the reunited Germany.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
10 MR IRVING: I think I will only have problems with the Halle
11one because that particular piece of film has been very
12heavily chopped around, cutting out very important parts
13of what I said. So, as I said before, if this is purely a
14rogues gallery, I have no objection to the court being
15shown it at this stage.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got a transcript of what you said at
17Halle?
18 MR IRVING: We have made a transcript of as much as is on the
19film as far as we possibly can.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just what is on the film? That is your
21point.
22 MR RAMPTON: I have not got that.
23 MR IRVING: It has been on my website for the last year.
24 MR RAMPTON: That is a peculiar way of making disclosure. Oh,
25it is not.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has probably been disclosed as well.
1Anyway, that is the one you may be objecting to?
2 MR IRVING: Purely to the text of the film rather than the
3rogues gallery pictures of these alleged sleezy friends of
4mine.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
6 MR RAMPTON: Now the Professor needs to be sworn.
7 < Professor Funke, affirmed.
8 < Examined by Mr Rampton QC
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Herr Funke, do sit down.
10 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, have you made a report for the
11purposes of this case?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I did.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as it contains statements of fact, are you
14satisfied that they are as true as they can be?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] And, so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are
17you satisfied that those opinions are fair?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] My Lord, Professor Funke's English is not quite as good as
20Dr Longerich's was. The subject with which he is dealing
21is in some senses quite subtle and in other senses quite
22technical. I am going to invite him at any stage, if he
23feels uncomfortable in English, to go into German. He
24must go slowly because otherwise the interpreter will not
25be able to keep up.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can manage in English, Professor, it
2makes life easier.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I try my best.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And a bit quicker but, if you feel
5difficulties, then have resort to the interpreter.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you.
7 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, could you please be given your
8report? Have you got your report there?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] At the back of your report there are two appendices.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Could you go to the appendix two, please?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which you have entitled "Biographies". Have you got the
15appendix there?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not need the actual report, I hope, at all, at any
18rate as far as I am concerned. You heard what I said to
19his Lordship before you were sworn to give evidence, that
20I am going to go through some of the names in this
21appendix and ask you who they are and what they stand
22for, what their ideologies and policies are. Do you
23remember my saying that?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going also to ask you in respect of each person
26whether you are able to give us in summary form an account
1of their contacts with Mr Irving. Can I first take a man
2who is not on this list, called Michael Kuhnen? Who is or
3was Michael Kuhnen?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Michael Kuhnen was one of the leading neo-Nazi activists
5in the 70s, throughout the 80s, up to April of '91, when
6he died. He was up to renew the NSDAP of the period of
7 '33 to '45.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] What we now call the Nazi party?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. So he did a lot together with others
10internationally and nationally, to ask for relegalization
11of this Party. Furthermore, he referred to special groups
12within the Nazi regime, that is the Sturmabteilung, the
13stormtroopers, a more street violence orientated
14perception of what the new Nazis, the neo-Nazis, the
15neo-National Socialists should do. Finally, I want to add
16that he asked for a second revolution in that sense, so to
17overflow the liberal democracy. He agitated very much
18against Jews, very anti-Semitic, he asked for pure Aryan
19race based state.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Give me again the year that he died?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] April 91.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] April 91. Amongst the neo-Nazi or far right groups now in
23Germany, are there any that can be described as Herr
24Kuhnen's direct heirs or successors?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There are some, especially I have to say there is a person
26called Christian Worch and there is another person called
1Gottfried Kussel from Austria, and they both have close
2links to NSDAPAO, person Gary Lauck from the United
3States. These are the three most important -- there are
4others around this camp, like Thomas Wulf from Hamburg,
5Christian Worch is from Hamburg, Uschi Worch from Hamburg.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is that Mrs Worch? Is that Frau Worch?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, would it be helpful if the witness at each
9stage indicated whether it is going to be alleged I had
10any contact with these names.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is stage 2.
12 MR RAMPTON: Be patient, please.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, stage 2, do not worry. We will get to
14that.
15 MR RAMPTON: Can you say whether a man called Ewald Althans is
16in this grouping or not?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, he is, but he did not found with the others one of
18these groupings in the 70s and the 80s was a group called
19ANSNA, action front of national socialists, and so forth,
20and then a group that is of importance for the period in
21the 80s and early 90s called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, a
22group of the like-minded of the new front.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who do we find in that -- have we got an abbreviation for
24that because I cannot say it each time?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We can call them Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] All right. I will try. Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We can call them also it is done sometimes in the social
2scientists reports "the Kuhnen crew".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, who nowadays is in the Kuhnen crew?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Nowadays?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes-- no, go back to the time when Kuhnen died, who do we
6find in the ----
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At that time it was Christian Worch, it was Althans, it
8was Uschi Worch. So far I see at the side lines also
9Ingrid Weckert, Gottfried Kussel, Thomas Wulf, and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, now taking them in turn, or, first, have they
11inherited, those people, the same kind of neo-Nazi
12ideology, particularly in relation to anti-Semitism, that
13was propounded by Kuhnen before he died?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They did not change the course of their ideas, as far as
15they are stated publicly. There are tactical, you know,
16changes but of lower degree. If I may add, nowadays means
17this year and some of them are still active like the
18Christian Worch near to the NPD extreme right-wing
19extremist party. That in itself changed in the course of
20the 90s to a more radical strategy.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we stay at the moment, please, in the early 90s at and
22around the time and immediately after the time of Kuhnen's
23death? At what date in Germany did Holocaust denial
24become illegal?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were in the middle of the '80s several laws set
26through the parliament that this is a kind of incitement
1of racial hatred and defamation of survivors and killed
2people. So in the middle of the '80s, there was a
3strikening, a sharpening of this kind of law that this is
4forbidden and again in '94, and so there was again renewal
5of this, of this law.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, now among those people that you have mentioned --
7I am going to take them in turn -- you have had access,
8have you not, to Mr Irving's correspondence, his diary and
9material of that kind, have you not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I did.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] First, may I take Mr Kuhnen who is now dead? Did ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to interrupt. For
13the transcribers' benefit, shall we just spell the names
14that we are really concerned with?
15 MR RAMPTON: K-U-H-N-E-N.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
17 MR RAMPTON: "Michael". Can you tell us whether or not
18Mr Irving had any contact with Michael Kuhnen and, if so,
19to what extent?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I see, but you know better, to a limited degree he
21saw him once, at least -- I have to be very precise --
22they were at the same meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In 1990 and so far I recall in '90 -- no, in '90,
25especially in '90, and in late '89. They were at the same
26meetings.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many meetings?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At least two I recall in Hagnau and on the 21st April
3of '90 and -- no, this is it, yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
5 MR IRVING: Could the witness be specific about what he means
6by being at the same meetings? Does he mean that
7Mr Kuhnen was in the audience or on the platform next to
8me?
9 MR RAMPTON: That is a good question.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a fair question, yes.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Exactly. He was in the audience and ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, who was in the audience? Mr Irving
13was in the audience or Mr Kuhnen was in the audience?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is quite important which actually?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Mr Kuhnen was in the audience and Mr Irving spoke in the,
17you know, a Congress [German] in Munich at the 21st
18April '90.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, then what about Ewald Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is very different. Mr Irving had close contacts ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Pause, sorry, I forgot. Althans is A-L-T-H-A-N-S. Ewald
22is E-W-A-L-D. Sorry.
23 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, most of the names are on the list that
24I have given to the transcriber.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not realize that.
26 MR IRVING: She will be able to find them eventually, but they
1are in the sequence of my questions rather than your
2questions.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful, Mr Irving.
4 MR RAMPTON: Tell us now about the relationship, if there is
5one, between Mr Althans and Mr Irving, Professor.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If I may say so, it is a very close relationship, so far
7I got it from the diaries. Of course, this is a limited
8source, but also by the disclosures and by other social
9scientists, researchers. Althans was very active in that
10period of time as a kind of mediator of the Zundel, of the
11Ernst Zundel, one of the leading revisionists, and he was
12a kind of pupil, if I may say so, of the late Otto Ernst
13Remer, one of the so-called heroes of the neo-Nazi scene.
14 MR RAMPTON: If I hold my hand up, can you pause because it
15means that something you have said has prompted another
16question? We will come back to Althans in a moment.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK. I will restrict myself. Excuse me.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, only if I hold my hand up otherwise you continue.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I will look at you.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you just tell us a little bit about is it Otto Ernst
21Remer?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Otto Ernst Remer, right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who was he? Is he still alive?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, he died in the middle, in the later '90s.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tell us first who he was.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is perceived as one of the heroes of the crushing down
1of the coup attempt of the resistance movement during the
2Nazi period in 20th July 1944. He was in one of the
3Berlin battalions to crush the coup d'etat attempt down
4and since then, after '45, he was perceived.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] What rank in the Army did he hold at the time when he
6crushed the 20th July plot?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall, I am not quite sure, I have to look it
8up, a Major. That is a kind of middle high range below
9the General level.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, we know what a Major is, I think. It is roughly the
11same, I imagine, in Germany. What rank did he achieve
12after he had crushed the coup?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He got up, but I cannot recall to what degree.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sorry, I should not have interrupted you. You continue
15with his place, please in this scenario which you are
16painting for us.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So maybe I should say two sentences to Remer to finish
18this ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, then we will go back to Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- for that period of time. He was then very active in
21one of the early neo-Nazi circles, after '45. So he was
22with founder of the Sozialistische
23Reichspartei -- cofounder, excuse me, of the Socialist
24Reichs Party, I would say, and these were clear cut people
25who tried to renew National Socialism. If you may imagine
26that at that time there was a lot of applause in parts of
1the population in Germany, and because of that but also
2by, you know, convincing value reasons, this party was
3forbidden in '52.
4 So after that the famous Fritz Bauer who did the
5Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt had a court from the state
6side against court ----
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Action?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- procedure against Remer statements in the early '50s.
9So there was really something to him. Then he stayed
10course, if I may say so, throughout the '50, '60s, '70s
11and got some resonance again in the '80s and especially in
12the '90s with a very harsh, I would say, neo-Nazi course
13of the so-called Remer Depechert(?). This is a little
14magazine, kind of magazine.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] You told us that in some sense Althans was a protege of
16Remer?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] How exactly did that happen and what does it mean?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As a young boy, Althans is in the '30s still, of 14 or 16,
20he joined Remer and got very intense lessons by Remer's
21convictions, and he referred himself in several
22statements, I mean Althans referred himself to this Remer
23like convictions and he said that they came from him to a
24degree.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, what relationship does or has Althans had with some
26of the other people you have mentioned, for example, the
1Worchs and Kussel?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They were at the period that is of interest, in the period
3that is of interest, very close. So they interacted, they
4had their quarrels, but they interacted a lot to prepare
5revisionist congresses, demonstrations, and I may add to
6widen their influence to the new free zone for influence,
7that is to say, the former GDR, East Germany. That was a
8very fruitful field after the falling down of the Wall.
9Immediately after that ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Explain as briefly as you can why that was a fruitful
11field for the activities of these people.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The authoritarian GDR regime lost not only control but all
13sorts of convictions that many people in authoritarian
14regime. This took place especially in the 80s, I am very
15sure. So a lot of various youngster groups spread and
16came to the fore, leftist, rightist and, in the middle of
17the 80s, in the face of the decay of the former
18authoritarian GDR regime, the extreme right-wing
19skinheads, very violent groups, took over in the scene out
20of the formal youth groupings and youth movement. Since
2186 or 87 we have had really a fascist scene that were very
22brutal against foreigners already at that period. So they
23were there without a control in 89 and early 90. This was
24the situation in which the far right groups, and
25especially these neo-Nazis we are talking about, said, OK
26this is a chance to widen our influence, to make and to
1steer and to be an avant-garde of male youngsters movement
2of that kind.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are going to see the film shortly. One such occasion
4as you have described with lots of these young skinheads
5took place at Halle in November 91, did it not?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is right, but also before and after.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where is Halle is my question? We are ignorant English in
8this court!
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Halle is around one hundred kilometres or so south to
10Berlin in East Germany former GDR.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] In the former GDR?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am not sure I am aware of the
14extent of Mr Irving's connections with the likes of Otto
15Remer. Althans you have dealt with I think. Otto Remer:
16Is there a connection alleged.
17 MR RAMPTON: I have not dealt with him. I will do that. I do
18not want to take too long. At the same time I do not want
19to cut any corners. Are you aware whether or not
20Mr Irving had any contacts with Otto Ernst Remer before he
21died?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so. During the meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do we see Otto Ernst Remer in any of these films or not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, we will see them, if the videos will be shown.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] I pass from Althans to somebody called -- I will take them
26out of order because I want to stick with what you have
1just told us, but I am coming back to some other names
2afterwards. What about Gottfried Kussel, the Austrian?
3Where does he stand in this? What is his position?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gottfried Kussel is perceived as one of the three dominant
5successors of the Kuhnen crew, the
6Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Aside of Christian Worch, who was
7the organisational leader, so to speak, and aside of a
8third person, wait a minute, Gottfried Kussel, Worch,
9I come to him in a minute.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] All right.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gottfried Kussel was and is an Austrian who joined this
12kind of attempt of renewal of the Nazi party, and he was
13eager to prepare paramilitary groups by so-called
14Wehrsportgruppe -- can you translate that?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Military exercise groups, military style
16support groups.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So he was very active in that, it was his part.
18 MR RAMPTON: Dressing up in battle dress with guns?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Marching around in the woods?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And using old weapons they found from the Second World War
22or using Bundeswar weapons, if they get them, using
23weapons of especially the army of Austria.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you take that kind of activity seriously?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not do it up to 89, I have to say, because up to 89
26there was such tiny little groups that we just looked over
1as social scientists, but since they got some influence
2and even widened this influence in the early 90s, you
3may recall that there was a brutal wave of violence
4against foreigners with 70 killed peoples within three
5years. So with this I was very eager to analyse it a bit
6more.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes I understand that.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, when did the Berlin Wall come
9down? I should know.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 9th November 89, so two years before this Halle meeting we
11are coming to.
12 MR RAMPTON: I have two diversions for you, I am afraid. The
139th November is an anniversary of something else, is it
14not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. It is the most loaded kind of anniversary date we
16have.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Apart from the 30th January perhaps, or the 20th April?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is even more loaded, if I may say so.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are a bit elliptical at this stage.
20 MR RAMPTON: The 30th January is the speech in the Reichstag in
211939.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Hitler's birthday, if I may add, is 20th April.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tell us about the 9th November.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was a coup d'etat of Hitler and his comrades at the
259th November 1923, the so-called ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Putsch?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] March to the Feltan Halle. You discuss it here.
2 MR RAMPTON: Tell me about that.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Of course 15 years later, 9th November, the
4so-called Reichskristallnacht, the night of the broken
5glasses, and again 9th November 1989. This was, by the
6way, the reason that the authorities did not dare to use
7this as a kind of national anniversary date.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. As you said, it is a bit loaded. Do you know whether
9Mr Irving has had any contacts with Gottfried Kussel?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. Again, the same as it is with Kuhnen, if
11I may say so, on the same level. They were at this same
12meeting, especially in Halle, and he has seen him, so far
13as the video shows, but maybe he sees it different. But
14the video is, I think, very clear on that. And the like.
15So no mentioned connections in the diaries and elsewhere.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now we come to somebody who I think we do find fairly
17often in the diaries, two people, Christian Worch and his
18wife Ursula or Uschi Worch. Do they appear in the
19diaries?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. This is, I would say, the interactions between David
21Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch, as intense as they
22were with Ewald Althans.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Characterize, if you will.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just counted the interactions so far we got it from the
25disclosures, from other sources and from the diary of
26David Irving, 26 in three years. A lot of interaction
1between others and David Irving and the Worches.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Others such as whom?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Others like Karl Philipp, another very interesting person
4in this network.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am coming to him. Karl Philipp. Anybody else?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Christian Worch was one of the main organizers, as
7I said, of the neo-Nazi movement between 89 and 93, the
8period that is of interest here. By the way, furthermore,
9so he is at the centre of this Kuhnen crew after his
10death.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is he still active?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is sill active. He organised a demonstration at the
1329th, so one day before the 30th January 2000 in Berlin,
14against the attempt to build a memorial of the Holocaust,
15a very neo-Nazi like demonstration, very ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask this? Are you saying that
17Mr Irving and Karl Philipp have had contact with each
18other?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so. Karl Philipp, Ewald Althans and
20Christian Worch are those with whom David Irving had the
21most intense interactions at that time.
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think he ought to specify, if he says
23I had 26 contacts, what he means by contacts.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that was Karl Philipp
25actually?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, that was Christian Worch.
1 MR IRVING: If we are to use that kind of statistic, I think it
2would be useful just to telephone ----
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to, up to a point.
4 MR RAMPTON: Absolutely right.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am anxious to get the broad picture at the
6moment, but can you explain what you mean by interactions
7or contacts?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take
9sides, to be invited. So, for example, at the 3rd March
10of '90 David Irving was invited to the group. He
11especially had, I have to say, in Hamburg, the so-called
12nationalist, this is a bunch of little tiny groups. So he
13was invited to give one of David Irving's speeches there,
14and there were, of course, the Nationalists, so part of
15this neo-Nazi camp, in that region, that is to say in
16Hamburg, and, on the other hand, new invited East Germans
17around the new built other group like the Deutsche
18Alternative. So just to say the minimum that groups of
19the neo-Nazi camp around Hamburg and groups of the new
20organized groupings of East Germany came together to hear
21David Irving at the 3rd March of '90. This kind of
22interaction, preparing speeches, tours and the like. The
23same holds true, if I may add this, in preparation of the
24event of the 9th November '91, in Halle. This Halle event
25was interesting in the regrouping and further organizing
26of the neo-Nazi movement in the early 90s. They tried to
1combine their groupings and you will see it on the video.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we just pause there?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] These summaries are taken from your report. We can see an
5illustration of what you are talking about, my Lord, if we
6take the second file, RWE file, and turn to tab 11. Could
7the witness please be given that? Could you turn please,
8Professor, to the second page in the summary which you
9will find at the beginning of that tab? It has a (ii) at
10the bottom of the page and we are looking at some dates.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again, excuse me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] The second page of the summary at the beginning.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] We see some dates from March 1990 to August 1991.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not need to read them out unless anybody wants me
17to. Would you just read them to yourself and continue
18down to the end of 9th November '91 on the following page.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. (Pause for reading).
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, if one reads on, one sees that they went on
21corresponding with each other through until June 1993.
22Can you please just look at the entry for the 1st January
231992? It is the middle of page (iii).
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] You, or rather Miss Rogers, has written summarising your
26evidence, letter P, that is Mr Irving, to the Worches,
1using the informal address "du". What does that signify
2in German if one addresses people in that form?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It signifies a close relation, that they know each other
4by private level.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you then respond to a suggestion, if it be made,
6that these Worch people were just informal slight
7acquaintances of Mr Irving who sometimes turned up to his
8meetings?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. They are of central importance. You let me read the
10page before, and it is stated that they met not only at
11the 3rd March but on the next day, Althans and Worch
12together with the plaintiff. Then Althans organized
13something with the help of Worch. That is the 21st April,
14the first revisionist Congress in Munich that was a joint
15organization. It is very interesting that you have
16joining the revisionists and the like with these kind of
17clear cut neo-Nazis. Then they met again the next morning
18with Wilhelm Staglich, another ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going to ask you about that entry for 22nd April in a
20moment. You say a close relationship, had Worch been
21present on these occasions when Mr Irving has spoken?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Has Worch spoken on the same occasions?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is several times the case. For example, at the second
25so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March '91 and
26again at the 9th November '91, and so far, yes, these are
1occasions.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel
4meeting. This is very important for this scene. The
5Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the
6death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving
7did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not
8want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with
9Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other
10person. This is Christian Worch.
11 MR IRVING: Would the witness just explain what he means by
12taking sides with Michael Kuhnen?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall your diary, but you know it better.
14 MR IRVING: May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it
15quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be
16there.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add -- no,
18I should not. I see. Go on.
19 MR RAMPTON: Who is Rudiger Hess?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of
21Rudolf Hess.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April
231990 please?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving's diary records that he had breakfast on the
26morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with
1Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm
2Staglich?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in
4these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old
5man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does revisionism in that sense include any element of
7Holocaust denial?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is often the case, and with him it is.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names
10now. I am going to go backwards through this summary that
11you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the
13Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is
14doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel,
15so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the
16German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Hoax of the 20th century"?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, in the 70s. I am not quite sure, the sources say
19that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in
20November 89.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are going to have a look at that.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and
23differentiated in trying to make this cause.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with
25Staglich or Walendy?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their
1revisionists meetings.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but
4I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of
5people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting
6networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to
7look it up.
8 MR RAMPTON: Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and
9perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has
10had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990.
11We get that from his own diary, do we not?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 MR IRVING: That is the only entry in the diary which mentions
14it, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was there around, you know. He was there often
16around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know,
17on the day before he was there too, and you too.
18 MR IRVING: In the audience.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know
20Mr Staglich, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON: What about somebody called Michael Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe I should spell it for the court?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] No?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it might be helpful because sometimes
25the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the
26problem?
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Go ahead.
2 MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or
4Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little
5tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause
6along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive
7NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall,
8in '91. The success of these events were modest.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you.
10 MR IRVING: Did you say events or event?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and
12your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the
13effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger
14audience.
15 MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies
16individually of each of these individuals. You said there
17is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the
18heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-Semitism
19xenophobia. Yes?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is this true of somebody like Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little
23differentiations because they have to stick to their card
24organizations.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these
26neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a
1policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and
2anti-foreigner?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see
4any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
5that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation,
6ideology, world view. No, not any person of this
7I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got
8the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a
9kind of same world view.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp
11or not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have.
13 MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you
14know who Ditlieb Felderer is?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist
16camp, and also politically very active.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think we are going to see him in one or other of these
18tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas
19Dienel?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East
21Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this
22cause after '89. He changed his views and parties, but he
23was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz
25Galinski died?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to
2that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated
5whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this
6Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury
7character.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to
9which ----
10 MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question.
11I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not
13one of those who has a section in RWE one or two?
14 MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is
15partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in
16the appendix, and one can read for oneself.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some
18importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if
20may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving
21is.
22 MR IRVING: Thank you.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe
24very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian
25Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting.
26 MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before.
1whether it will, and he will immediately get a copy.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He ought to have the copy by close of
3business today really, ought he not?
4 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. So that deals with that.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, inform me, please. Is it not automatically
7discoverable now that it is within their custody,
8possession and power?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get it.
10 MR IRVING: Just so it can be quite plain, the whole document
11rather than a redacted version.
12 MR RAMPTON: No. I made a mistake. I thought it had come
13through in e-mail and has been put into readable form.
14Apparently not even that has happened yet. There is
15something the matter with the electronics.
16 MR IRVING: I recommend Macintosh.
17 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what the problem is because I am
18completely ignorant on those matters, so I have to
19surrender to others.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the order I am making, unless I am
21told that it is electronically impossible to comply with
22it, is that you should be provided with a copy.
23 MR IRVING: In electronic form if necessary.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In electronic form if necessary, of the
25Eichmann document by close of business, by which I mean,
26let us say, 5 p.m. today.
. P-4
1 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship. The second point
2concerns the videos. I see that preparation has been made
3for display of videos. I have no notion of which video is
4going to be shown. It may well be that I would have
5objections to make to the videos for the reasons that
6I have already adumbrated to your Lordship, namely videos
7that have been edited in some way or prepared for
8broadcasting with sound effects and violins and subtitles,
9which may have been tendentiously translated, and the rest
10of it. I see the equipment is there. I certainly have a
11day of cross-examination of Professor Funke to do today
12and I think that I should be told in advance what the
13videos are and be given a chance to make representations.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have some sympathy with that.
15 MR RAMPTON: What I propose to do is to ask Professor Funke to
16lay the ground for these videos, because I do not think it
17is right to spring them on Mr Irving or your Lordship just
18like that, by asking him. Your Lordship will know that at
19the back of his report there is an appendix containing a
20list of names and descriptions. I am going to ask him to
21go through the important characters in that list, to
22expand on who they are and what they stand for, then to
23ask him how far he is aware that those people have had
24contact with Mr Irving, because Professor Funke has had
25access to Mr Irving's diary correspondence and so on, and
26to ask him the nature of those contacts speaking to
. P-5
1us, for example, and the extent of them. That I hope is a
2short cut through what is a very voluminous and in some
3senses rather intricate report. Then I propose to show
4the videos which, as far as possible, we have stripped of
5editorial content. Most of them simply show people
6speaking, including, to a large extent, Mr Irving himself
7on a number ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not a jury and I am quite capable,
9I hope, sorting out the wheat from the chaff.
10 MR RAMPTON: Precisely -- on a limited number of occasions in
11Germany in the 1990s. What Professor Funke will do is to
12identify Mr Irving's fellow travellers, if I can call them
13that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will he also identify in advance what film is
15going to be shown so that, if Mr Irving has an objection,
16he can make it.
17 MR RAMPTON: He or I or Miss Rogers will do that.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the video going to take?
19 MR RAMPTON: They can be very short. One of them is really
20quite long, but I do not believe it needs to have the
21whole of it shown. Most of them are really quite short.
22One is about 10 seconds.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The total?
24 MR RAMPTON: Total about an hour.
25 MR RAMPTON: The long one I spoke of is about 70 minutes, but
26there is an awful lot of, if I may use the word, ranting,
. P-6
1not by Mr Irving alone, in the course of that video and
2one does not want to see the whole of it, necessarily.
3One merely needs to whiz forwards so that Professor Funke
4can say who the people are. That is 70 minutes but one
5does not need to watch the whole of it. The rest in total
6are about 45 minutes. If I said an hour for the videos
7and about three quarters of an hour in preparation, that
8will then set the scene for cross-examination.
9 MR IRVING: My Lord, if it is purely, as I understand it, what
10Muller would have called visual materials, then I have no
11objection to them being shown. But if in any attention is
12paid to the content of what is alleged to be said, or the
13extracts taken, then of course I would want advance notice
14of them.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us leave it like this. You are going to
16get some idea from Mr Funke's evidence what these clips
17are going to be. If you want to raise an objection when
18you know what you are going to be presented with, then do
19so. Shall we leave it like that?
20 MR RAMPTON: I will tell Mr Irving now what the meetings are.
21There is one on at Agonou in Azas on 12th November 1989
22organised by Mr Christophersen. There is a meeting in
23Munich under the legend or heading "Vaheit macht Frey" on
2421st April 1990. There is a meeting at Passau under the
25aegis of the DVU and Mr Gerhard Frey on 16th February
261991. There is what is called the Leuchter Congress,
. P-7
1which is the long tape, on 23rd March 1991, again in
2Munich, and that is one in which a number of names which
3will be familiar to your Lordship, if not now, certainly
4by end of this exercise, feature. Then finally there is
5what is, in some ways we would suppose, perhaps the most
6striking, which is an outdoor rally in a place called
7Halle in what used to be East Germany but by 9th November
81991 was in the reunited Germany.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. Thank you very much.
10 MR IRVING: I think I will only have problems with the Halle
11one because that particular piece of film has been very
12heavily chopped around, cutting out very important parts
13of what I said. So, as I said before, if this is purely a
14rogues gallery, I have no objection to the court being
15shown it at this stage.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got a transcript of what you said at
17Halle?
18 MR IRVING: We have made a transcript of as much as is on the
19film as far as we possibly can.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just what is on the film? That is your
21point.
22 MR RAMPTON: I have not got that.
23 MR IRVING: It has been on my website for the last year.
24 MR RAMPTON: That is a peculiar way of making disclosure. Oh,
25it is not.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It has probably been disclosed as well.
. P-8
1Anyway, that is the one you may be objecting to?
2 MR IRVING: Purely to the text of the film rather than the
3rogues gallery pictures of these alleged sleezy friends of
4mine.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right.
6 MR RAMPTON: Now the Professor needs to be sworn.
7 < Professor Funke, affirmed.
8 < Examined by Mr Rampton QC
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Herr Funke, do sit down.
10 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, have you made a report for the
11purposes of this case?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I did.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] So far as it contains statements of fact, are you
14satisfied that they are as true as they can be?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] And, so far as they contain expressions of opinion, are
17you satisfied that those opinions are fair?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] My Lord, Professor Funke's English is not quite as good as
20Dr Longerich's was. The subject with which he is dealing
21is in some senses quite subtle and in other senses quite
22technical. I am going to invite him at any stage, if he
23feels uncomfortable in English, to go into German. He
24must go slowly because otherwise the interpreter will not
25be able to keep up.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
. P-9
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you can manage in English, Professor, it
2makes life easier.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I try my best.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And a bit quicker but, if you feel
5difficulties, then have resort to the interpreter.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thank you.
7 MR RAMPTON: Professor Funke, could you please be given your
8report? Have you got your report there?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] At the back of your report there are two appendices.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] Could you go to the appendix two, please?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which you have entitled "Biographies". Have you got the
15appendix there?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not need the actual report, I hope, at all, at any
18rate as far as I am concerned. You heard what I said to
19his Lordship before you were sworn to give evidence, that
20I am going to go through some of the names in this
21appendix and ask you who they are and what they stand
22for, what their ideologies and policies are. Do you
23remember my saying that?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going also to ask you in respect of each person
26whether you are able to give us in summary form an account
. P-10
1of their contacts with Mr Irving. Can I first take a man
2who is not on this list, called Michael Kuhnen? Who is or
3was Michael Kuhnen?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Michael Kuhnen was one of the leading neo-Nazi activists
5in the 70s, throughout the 80s, up to April of '91, when
6he died. He was up to renew the NSDAP of the period of
7 '33 to '45.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] What we now call the Nazi party?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. So he did a lot together with others
10internationally and nationally, to ask for relegalization
11of this Party. Furthermore, he referred to special groups
12within the Nazi regime, that is the Sturmabteilung, the
13stormtroopers, a more street violence orientated
14perception of what the new Nazis, the neo-Nazis, the
15neo-National Socialists should do. Finally, I want to add
16that he asked for a second revolution in that sense, so to
17overflow the liberal democracy. He agitated very much
18against Jews, very anti-Semitic, he asked for pure Aryan
19race based state.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Give me again the year that he died?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] April 91.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] April 91. Amongst the neo-Nazi or far right groups now in
23Germany, are there any that can be described as Herr
24Kuhnen's direct heirs or successors?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There are some, especially I have to say there is a person
26called Christian Worch and there is another person called
. P-11
1Gottfried Kussel from Austria, and they both have close
2links to NSDAPAO, person Gary Lauck from the United
3States. These are the three most important -- there are
4others around this camp, like Thomas Wulf from Hamburg,
5Christian Worch is from Hamburg, Uschi Worch from Hamburg.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is that Mrs Worch? Is that Frau Worch?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
8 MR IRVING: My Lord, would it be helpful if the witness at each
9stage indicated whether it is going to be alleged I had
10any contact with these names.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is stage 2.
12 MR RAMPTON: Be patient, please.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, stage 2, do not worry. We will get to
14that.
15 MR RAMPTON: Can you say whether a man called Ewald Althans is
16in this grouping or not?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, he is, but he did not found with the others one of
18these groupings in the 70s and the 80s was a group called
19ANSNA, action front of national socialists, and so forth,
20and then a group that is of importance for the period in
21the 80s and early 90s called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, a
22group of the like-minded of the new front.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who do we find in that -- have we got an abbreviation for
24that because I cannot say it each time?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We can call them Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] All right. I will try. Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
. P-12
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We can call them also it is done sometimes in the social
2scientists reports "the Kuhnen crew".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, who nowadays is in the Kuhnen crew?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Nowadays?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes-- no, go back to the time when Kuhnen died, who do we
6find in the ----
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At that time it was Christian Worch, it was Althans, it
8was Uschi Worch. So far I see at the side lines also
9Ingrid Weckert, Gottfried Kussel, Thomas Wulf, and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right, now taking them in turn, or, first, have they
11inherited, those people, the same kind of neo-Nazi
12ideology, particularly in relation to anti-Semitism, that
13was propounded by Kuhnen before he died?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They did not change the course of their ideas, as far as
15they are stated publicly. There are tactical, you know,
16changes but of lower degree. If I may add, nowadays means
17this year and some of them are still active like the
18Christian Worch near to the NPD extreme right-wing
19extremist party. That in itself changed in the course of
20the 90s to a more radical strategy.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we stay at the moment, please, in the early 90s at and
22around the time and immediately after the time of Kuhnen's
23death? At what date in Germany did Holocaust denial
24become illegal?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were in the middle of the '80s several laws set
26through the parliament that this is a kind of incitement
. P-13
1of racial hatred and defamation of survivors and killed
2people. So in the middle of the '80s, there was a
3strikening, a sharpening of this kind of law that this is
4forbidden and again in '94, and so there was again renewal
5of this, of this law.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, now among those people that you have mentioned --
7I am going to take them in turn -- you have had access,
8have you not, to Mr Irving's correspondence, his diary and
9material of that kind, have you not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I did.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] First, may I take Mr Kuhnen who is now dead? Did ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to interrupt. For
13the transcribers' benefit, shall we just spell the names
14that we are really concerned with?
15 MR RAMPTON: K-U-H-N-E-N.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you.
17 MR RAMPTON: "Michael". Can you tell us whether or not
18Mr Irving had any contact with Michael Kuhnen and, if so,
19to what extent?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I see, but you know better, to a limited degree he
21saw him once, at least -- I have to be very precise --
22they were at the same meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In 1990 and so far I recall in '90 -- no, in '90,
25especially in '90, and in late '89. They were at the same
26meetings.
. P-14
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many meetings?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] At least two I recall in Hagnau and on the 21st April
3of '90 and -- no, this is it, yes.
4 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
5 MR IRVING: Could the witness be specific about what he means
6by being at the same meetings? Does he mean that
7Mr Kuhnen was in the audience or on the platform next to
8me?
9 MR RAMPTON: That is a good question.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a fair question, yes.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Exactly. He was in the audience and ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, who was in the audience? Mr Irving
13was in the audience or Mr Kuhnen was in the audience?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is quite important which actually?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Mr Kuhnen was in the audience and Mr Irving spoke in the,
17you know, a Congress [German] in Munich at the 21st
18April '90.
19 MR RAMPTON: Yes, then what about Ewald Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is very different. Mr Irving had close contacts ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Pause, sorry, I forgot. Althans is A-L-T-H-A-N-S. Ewald
22is E-W-A-L-D. Sorry.
23 MR IRVING: Mr Rampton, most of the names are on the list that
24I have given to the transcriber.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not realize that.
26 MR IRVING: She will be able to find them eventually, but they
. P-15
1are in the sequence of my questions rather than your
2questions.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful, Mr Irving.
4 MR RAMPTON: Tell us now about the relationship, if there is
5one, between Mr Althans and Mr Irving, Professor.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] If I may say so, it is a very close relationship, so far
7I got it from the diaries. Of course, this is a limited
8source, but also by the disclosures and by other social
9scientists, researchers. Althans was very active in that
10period of time as a kind of mediator of the Zundel, of the
11Ernst Zundel, one of the leading revisionists, and he was
12a kind of pupil, if I may say so, of the late Otto Ernst
13Remer, one of the so-called heroes of the neo-Nazi scene.
14 MR RAMPTON: If I hold my hand up, can you pause because it
15means that something you have said has prompted another
16question? We will come back to Althans in a moment.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK. I will restrict myself. Excuse me.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, only if I hold my hand up otherwise you continue.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I will look at you.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you just tell us a little bit about is it Otto Ernst
21Remer?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Otto Ernst Remer, right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who was he? Is he still alive?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, he died in the middle, in the later '90s.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tell us first who he was.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is perceived as one of the heroes of the crushing down
. P-16
1of the coup attempt of the resistance movement during the
2Nazi period in 20th July 1944. He was in one of the
3Berlin battalions to crush the coup d'etat attempt down
4and since then, after '45, he was perceived.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] What rank in the Army did he hold at the time when he
6crushed the 20th July plot?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall, I am not quite sure, I have to look it
8up, a Major. That is a kind of middle high range below
9the General level.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, we know what a Major is, I think. It is roughly the
11same, I imagine, in Germany. What rank did he achieve
12after he had crushed the coup?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He got up, but I cannot recall to what degree.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sorry, I should not have interrupted you. You continue
15with his place, please in this scenario which you are
16painting for us.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So maybe I should say two sentences to Remer to finish
18this ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, then we will go back to Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- for that period of time. He was then very active in
21one of the early neo-Nazi circles, after '45. So he was
22with founder of the Sozialistische
23Reichspartei -- cofounder, excuse me, of the Socialist
24Reichs Party, I would say, and these were clear cut people
25who tried to renew National Socialism. If you may imagine
26that at that time there was a lot of applause in parts of
. P-17
1the population in Germany, and because of that but also
2by, you know, convincing value reasons, this party was
3forbidden in '52.
4 So after that the famous Fritz Bauer who did the
5Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt had a court from the state
6side against court ----
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Action?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- procedure against Remer statements in the early '50s.
9So there was really something to him. Then he stayed
10course, if I may say so, throughout the '50, '60s, '70s
11and got some resonance again in the '80s and especially in
12the '90s with a very harsh, I would say, neo-Nazi course
13of the so-called Remer Depechert(?). This is a little
14magazine, kind of magazine.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] You told us that in some sense Althans was a protege of
16Remer?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] How exactly did that happen and what does it mean?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] As a young boy, Althans is in the '30s still, of 14 or 16,
20he joined Remer and got very intense lessons by Remer's
21convictions, and he referred himself in several
22statements, I mean Althans referred himself to this Remer
23like convictions and he said that they came from him to a
24degree.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, what relationship does or has Althans had with some
26of the other people you have mentioned, for example, the
. P-18
1Worchs and Kussel?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They were at the period that is of interest, in the period
3that is of interest, very close. So they interacted, they
4had their quarrels, but they interacted a lot to prepare
5revisionist congresses, demonstrations, and I may add to
6widen their influence to the new free zone for influence,
7that is to say, the former GDR, East Germany. That was a
8very fruitful field after the falling down of the Wall.
9Immediately after that ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Explain as briefly as you can why that was a fruitful
11field for the activities of these people.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] The authoritarian GDR regime lost not only control but all
13sorts of convictions that many people in authoritarian
14regime. This took place especially in the 80s, I am very
15sure. So a lot of various youngster groups spread and
16came to the fore, leftist, rightist and, in the middle of
17the 80s, in the face of the decay of the former
18authoritarian GDR regime, the extreme right-wing
19skinheads, very violent groups, took over in the scene out
20of the formal youth groupings and youth movement. Since
2186 or 87 we have had really a fascist scene that were very
22brutal against foreigners already at that period. So they
23were there without a control in 89 and early 90. This was
24the situation in which the far right groups, and
25especially these neo-Nazis we are talking about, said, OK
26this is a chance to widen our influence, to make and to
. P-19
1steer and to be an avant-garde of male youngsters movement
2of that kind.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are going to see the film shortly. One such occasion
4as you have described with lots of these young skinheads
5took place at Halle in November 91, did it not?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, this is right, but also before and after.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Where is Halle is my question? We are ignorant English in
8this court!
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Halle is around one hundred kilometres or so south to
10Berlin in East Germany former GDR.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] In the former GDR?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, I am not sure I am aware of the
14extent of Mr Irving's connections with the likes of Otto
15Remer. Althans you have dealt with I think. Otto Remer:
16Is there a connection alleged.
17 MR RAMPTON: I have not dealt with him. I will do that. I do
18not want to take too long. At the same time I do not want
19to cut any corners. Are you aware whether or not
20Mr Irving had any contacts with Otto Ernst Remer before he
21died?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think so. During the meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do we see Otto Ernst Remer in any of these films or not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, we will see them, if the videos will be shown.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] I pass from Althans to somebody called -- I will take them
26out of order because I want to stick with what you have
. P-20
1just told us, but I am coming back to some other names
2afterwards. What about Gottfried Kussel, the Austrian?
3Where does he stand in this? What is his position?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gottfried Kussel is perceived as one of the three dominant
5successors of the Kuhnen crew, the
6Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Aside of Christian Worch, who was
7the organisational leader, so to speak, and aside of a
8third person, wait a minute, Gottfried Kussel, Worch,
9I come to him in a minute.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] All right.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Gottfried Kussel was and is an Austrian who joined this
12kind of attempt of renewal of the Nazi party, and he was
13eager to prepare paramilitary groups by so-called
14Wehrsportgruppe -- can you translate that?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Military exercise groups, military style
16support groups.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So he was very active in that, it was his part.
18 MR RAMPTON: Dressing up in battle dress with guns?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Marching around in the woods?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] And using old weapons they found from the Second World War
22or using Bundeswar weapons, if they get them, using
23weapons of especially the army of Austria.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you take that kind of activity seriously?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not do it up to 89, I have to say, because up to 89
26there was such tiny little groups that we just looked over
. P-21
1as social scientists, but since they got some influence
2and even widened this influence in the early 90s, you
3may recall that there was a brutal wave of violence
4against foreigners with 70 killed peoples within three
5years. So with this I was very eager to analyse it a bit
6more.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes I understand that.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, when did the Berlin Wall come
9down? I should know.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 9th November 89, so two years before this Halle meeting we
11are coming to.
12 MR RAMPTON: I have two diversions for you, I am afraid. The
139th November is an anniversary of something else, is it
14not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. It is the most loaded kind of anniversary date we
16have.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Apart from the 30th January perhaps, or the 20th April?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, it is even more loaded, if I may say so.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are a bit elliptical at this stage.
20 MR RAMPTON: The 30th January is the speech in the Reichstag in
211939.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Hitler's birthday, if I may add, is 20th April.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Tell us about the 9th November.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There was a coup d'etat of Hitler and his comrades at the
259th November 1923, the so-called ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Putsch?
. P-22
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] March to the Feltan Halle. You discuss it here.
2 MR RAMPTON: Tell me about that.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Of course 15 years later, 9th November, the
4so-called Reichskristallnacht, the night of the broken
5glasses, and again 9th November 1989. This was, by the
6way, the reason that the authorities did not dare to use
7this as a kind of national anniversary date.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. As you said, it is a bit loaded. Do you know whether
9Mr Irving has had any contacts with Gottfried Kussel?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I do not know. Again, the same as it is with Kuhnen, if
11I may say so, on the same level. They were at this same
12meeting, especially in Halle, and he has seen him, so far
13as the video shows, but maybe he sees it different. But
14the video is, I think, very clear on that. And the like.
15So no mentioned connections in the diaries and elsewhere.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now we come to somebody who I think we do find fairly
17often in the diaries, two people, Christian Worch and his
18wife Ursula or Uschi Worch. Do they appear in the
19diaries?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. This is, I would say, the interactions between David
21Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch, as intense as they
22were with Ewald Althans.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Characterize, if you will.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I just counted the interactions so far we got it from the
25disclosures, from other sources and from the diary of
26David Irving, 26 in three years. A lot of interaction
. P-23
1between others and David Irving and the Worches.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Others such as whom?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Others like Karl Philipp, another very interesting person
4in this network.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am coming to him. Karl Philipp. Anybody else?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Christian Worch was one of the main organizers, as
7I said, of the neo-Nazi movement between 89 and 93, the
8period that is of interest here. By the way, furthermore,
9so he is at the centre of this Kuhnen crew after his
10death.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is he still active?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is sill active. He organised a demonstration at the
1329th, so one day before the 30th January 2000 in Berlin,
14against the attempt to build a memorial of the Holocaust,
15a very neo-Nazi like demonstration, very ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask this? Are you saying that
17Mr Irving and Karl Philipp have had contact with each
18other?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so. Karl Philipp, Ewald Althans and
20Christian Worch are those with whom David Irving had the
21most intense interactions at that time.
22 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think he ought to specify, if he says
23I had 26 contacts, what he means by contacts.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that was Karl Philipp
25actually?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, that was Christian Worch.
. P-24
1 MR IRVING: If we are to use that kind of statistic, I think it
2would be useful just to telephone ----
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you want to, up to a point.
4 MR RAMPTON: Absolutely right.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am anxious to get the broad picture at the
6moment, but can you explain what you mean by interactions
7or contacts?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take
9sides, to be invited. So, for example, at the 3rd March
10of '90 David Irving was invited to the group. He
11especially had, I have to say, in Hamburg, the so-called
12nationalist, this is a bunch of little tiny groups. So he
13was invited to give one of David Irving's speeches there,
14and there were, of course, the Nationalists, so part of
15this neo-Nazi camp, in that region, that is to say in
16Hamburg, and, on the other hand, new invited East Germans
17around the new built other group like the Deutsche
18Alternative. So just to say the minimum that groups of
19the neo-Nazi camp around Hamburg and groups of the new
20organized groupings of East Germany came together to hear
21David Irving at the 3rd March of '90. This kind of
22interaction, preparing speeches, tours and the like. The
23same holds true, if I may add this, in preparation of the
24event of the 9th November '91, in Halle. This Halle event
25was interesting in the regrouping and further organizing
26of the neo-Nazi movement in the early 90s. They tried to
. P-25
1combine their groupings and you will see it on the video.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can we just pause there?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] These summaries are taken from your report. We can see an
5illustration of what you are talking about, my Lord, if we
6take the second file, RWE file, and turn to tab 11. Could
7the witness please be given that? Could you turn please,
8Professor, to the second page in the summary which you
9will find at the beginning of that tab? It has a (ii) at
10the bottom of the page and we are looking at some dates.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Say it again, excuse me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] The second page of the summary at the beginning.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] We see some dates from March 1990 to August 1991.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] We do not need to read them out unless anybody wants me
17to. Would you just read them to yourself and continue
18down to the end of 9th November '91 on the following page.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. (Pause for reading).
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] Now, if one reads on, one sees that they went on
21corresponding with each other through until June 1993.
22Can you please just look at the entry for the 1st January
231992? It is the middle of page (iii).
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] You, or rather Miss Rogers, has written summarising your
26evidence, letter P, that is Mr Irving, to the Worches,
. P-26
1using the informal address "du". What does that signify
2in German if one addresses people in that form?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It signifies a close relation, that they know each other
4by private level.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you then respond to a suggestion, if it be made,
6that these Worch people were just informal slight
7acquaintances of Mr Irving who sometimes turned up to his
8meetings?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. They are of central importance. You let me read the
10page before, and it is stated that they met not only at
11the 3rd March but on the next day, Althans and Worch
12together with the plaintiff. Then Althans organized
13something with the help of Worch. That is the 21st April,
14the first revisionist Congress in Munich that was a joint
15organization. It is very interesting that you have
16joining the revisionists and the like with these kind of
17clear cut neo-Nazis. Then they met again the next morning
18with Wilhelm Staglich, another ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am going to ask you about that entry for 22nd April in a
20moment. You say a close relationship, had Worch been
21present on these occasions when Mr Irving has spoken?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Has Worch spoken on the same occasions?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is several times the case. For example, at the second
25so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March '91 and
26again at the 9th November '91, and so far, yes, these are
. P-27
1occasions.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel
4meeting. This is very important for this scene. The
5Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the
6death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving
7did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not
8want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with
9Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other
10person. This is Christian Worch.
11 MR IRVING: Would the witness just explain what he means by
12taking sides with Michael Kuhnen?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far I recall your diary, but you know it better.
14 MR IRVING: May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it
15quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be
16there.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add -- no,
18I should not. I see. Go on.
19 MR RAMPTON: Who is Rudiger Hess?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of
21Rudolf Hess.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April
231990 please?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Mr Irving's diary records that he had breakfast on the
26morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with
. P-28
1Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm
2Staglich?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in
4these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old
5man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Does revisionism in that sense include any element of
7Holocaust denial?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is often the case, and with him it is.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names
10now. I am going to go backwards through this summary that
11you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the
13Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is
14doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel,
15so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the
16German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Hoax of the 20th century"?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right, in the 70s. I am not quite sure, the sources say
19that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in
20November 89.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] We are going to have a look at that.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and
23differentiated in trying to make this cause.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with
25Staglich or Walendy?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their
. P-29
1revisionists meetings.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but
4I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of
5people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting
6networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to
7look it up.
8 MR RAMPTON: Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and
9perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has
10had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990.
11We get that from his own diary, do we not?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
13 MR IRVING: That is the only entry in the diary which mentions
14it, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He was there around, you know. He was there often
16around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know,
17on the day before he was there too, and you too.
18 MR IRVING: In the audience.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know
20Mr Staglich, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON: What about somebody called Michael Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe I should spell it for the court?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] No?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it might be helpful because sometimes
25the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the
26problem?
. P-30
1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Go ahead.
2 MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or
4Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little
5tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause
6along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive
7NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall,
8in '91. The success of these events were modest.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you.
10 MR IRVING: Did you say events or event?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and
12your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the
13effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger
14audience.
15 MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies
16individually of each of these individuals. You said there
17is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the
18heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-Semitism
19xenophobia. Yes?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is this true of somebody like Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little
23differentiations because they have to stick to their card
24organizations.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these
26neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a
. P-31
1policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and
2anti-foreigner?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see
4any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
5that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation,
6ideology, world view. No, not any person of this
7I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got
8the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a
9kind of same world view.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp
11or not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have.
13 MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you
14know who Ditlieb Felderer is?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist
16camp, and also politically very active.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think we are going to see him in one or other of these
18tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas
19Dienel?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East
21Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this
22cause after '89. He changed his views and parties, but he
23was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz
25Galinski died?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
. P-32
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to
2that?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated
5whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this
6Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury
7character.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to
9which ----
10 MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question.
11I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not
13one of those who has a section in RWE one or two?
14 MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is
15partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in
16the appendix, and one can read for oneself.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some
18importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if
20may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving
21is.
22 MR IRVING: Thank you.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe
24very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian
25Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting.
26 MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before.
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